Renters Regain Management and a New Lease Worth Forecast

Dave:
As traders, hire costs and hire progress are among the first issues that you simply have a look at whenever you’re analyzing a deal, contemplating a market, or simply making an attempt to determine what sort of investments you’re going to make. And for a very long time, hire progress was comparatively steady and predictable, however not for the final couple of years. Today, we’ve to pay a lot nearer consideration to hire developments with all the provision that is occurring, all of the adjustments to demand within the market. If we wish our investments to carry out to their peak potential, we have to perceive this stuff. And we are able to’t simply have a look at one high line nationwide quantity. We’ve to have a look at the regional and market developments and perceive actually in our subsection, our area of interest of the true property investing world, what is going on as a result of hire performs such an enormous position within the efficiency of our traders. So as we speak, that’s what we’re gonna be digging into.
Hey, BiggerPockets listeners, it’s Dave right here for our weekly Larger information episodes, and it’s been form of some time since we talked about what’s going on with hire developments. So I wished to deliver on an professional to assist us perceive what adjustments have been happening, how issues are shifting as we get in direction of the top of 2024 right here. And so we’re bringing on Igor Popov, he’s the Chief economist with condominium checklist. They produce some actually fascinating insightful studies. So I’m desirous to deliver on Igor to speak about before everything, the, I’ll preserve it quick, however current historical past of rents and what’s been happening over the past couple of years. How the current increase in multifamily provide has impacted rents and what’s occurring as we speak in 2024 that can flip our consideration to the longer term. And speak about how as provide peaks and new building stops coming on-line within the subsequent couple of years, like what’s gonna occur to rents then?
And since we’re recording right here on September 18th, and identical to an hour in the past we heard that the Fed reduce rates of interest by 50 foundation factors. We are going to get into that a bit of bit, however to be trustworthy, nonetheless processing all of that data. And I do know for some folks speaking about hire developments and progress can really feel like form of this nerdy data-driven matter, nevertheless it doesn’t need to be. And Igor actually does an ideal job of translating numbers and developments. It’s very clear takeaways that may assist you to in your investing profession and your investing choices. And I believe you’re gonna study a ton from our dialog. So let’s get into it. Igor, welcome to the BiggerPockets podcast. Thanks for becoming a member of us.

Igor:
Hello, Dave. I’m actually blissful to be right here. Thanks for having me on.

Dave:
I’m excited to have you ever. We’re gonna speak and dig into hire progress, hire developments. Mm-Hmm.

Igor:
,

Dave:
All of that good things that our viewers, I’m certain could be very keen to listen to from you about. However first, inform us a bit of bit about your background and your work at Condominium Listing.

Igor:
Yeah, completely. I’m the Chief economist and head of product analytics at Condominium Listing, I ought to say. Condominium checklist is an internet, uh, rental market. So for those who’re a a property supervisor, landlord, you possibly can checklist a, a, a rental. In case you’re a renter, you possibly can have a curated and a search expertise to attempt to discover the place that’s best for you. And I lead our inside analytics, but in addition our, our analysis workforce, uh, that sort of has an outward going through view and tries to grasp what’s occurring out there and likewise attempt to make it possible for the info that we’re seeing whereas we function our platform sort of will get into the fingers of all the, the folks that want it most to make choices. Um, and so I’ve a very enjoyable job. I get to speak to good folks all day and mess around with lots of fascinating housing market knowledge. And, you already know, once I, once I began on this position, I had no thought simply how bonkers the housing market within the US would would, would, would turn into, uh, as we acquired into 2020 and and the next years, I believe the demand for actual time, uh, rental knowledge simply shot by the roof. And so yeah, we discovered ourselves in a really lucky place to have the ability to kinda present that to among the exterior world.

Dave:
Yeah. So I’m keen to listen to what is going on. However earlier than we get into that, may you assist us simply set the stage and supply some context for what’s, quote unquote regular hire progress ? Like for those who Proper, had been to explain a bland 12 months of hire progress and hire costs. Mm-Hmm. , what would you count on?

Igor:
, after we had been dwelling our lives in 20 17, 20 18, 20 19, we didn’t consider these as notably regular years that we’d discuss with as, as regular for, uh, for a while afterwards. However from a rental market perspective, um, you already know, rents, hire progress hovered between three to 4% yearly, sort of outpacing broader inflation by only a tad. And there was some actually fascinating regional variation, nevertheless it wasn’t dramatic. , sort of sizzling markets grew 5 to 7% a 12 months. Cool. Markets would possibly develop, you already know, 2% a 12 months, possibly 1% a 12 months. Lease progress was actually sluggish. The one locations with actual double digit hire progress can be small sort of fracking or oil cities. When one thing dramatic occurred within the vitality sector, they might have a giant swing. Uh, come 2020 when the pandemic hit, all the things actually modified in a single day. And unexpectedly we discovered that these actual time shocks in demand may have dramatic swings on the housing market.
2020, we noticed, you already know, rents actually nostril dive in among the, the, the cities the place, you already know, location was on the highest premium, proper? New York, you’re there since you wanna be near all the things in New York, San Francisco, you wish to be there since you wish to be near, uh, wonderful jobs within the wonderful, uh, ambiance. Hastily when the shelter in place economic system took maintain, proximity wasn’t factor anymore. That value premium primarily evaporated. And we noticed hire declines in among the, essentially the most, you already know, excessive, extremely populated US cities, uh, on the order of 20 to 25% in locations like New York and San Francisco and, and, and Boston. So, you already know, I believe that was the second, Dave, after we needed to sort of throw out the analysis agenda that we had deliberate for 2020 and see, okay, how do we actually focus in on what’s happening proper now?
However what’s much more fascinating is what occurred subsequent, as a result of as, as a lot of your listeners I believe are, are deeply conscious of that sort of created this coiled spring within the housing market, so to talk, that simply set free all this vitality in beginning within the second half of 2020. However actually going into 2021, after we noticed this large increase in rents, our, our hire index confirmed hire grew 18% in 2021. Wow. Once more, exceptional from a pre pandemic understanding of, of the US rental market. After which within the final couple years, we’ve actually been monitoring a, a cooling market ever since. Rates of interest began to rise, financial uncertainty began to essentially take maintain, and a few of that feeling of invincibility that some components of the economic system felt in 2021 began to dissipate. In order that’s nonetheless the market we’re in as we speak. However, um, you already know, as, as we’re speaking, the Fed simply introduced, uh, 50 level, uh, 50 foundation level reduce. So, uh, it’s actually nonetheless a dynamic market. We haven’t seen a quote unquote regular interval of hire progress within the 2020s up to now.

Dave:
Thanks for offering that context, Igor. I simply wished to name out that whenever you speak about cities like New York seeing double digit, 18%, 20% decreases how irregular that’s, even whenever you look again to durations of financial problem, like the nice monetary disaster, similar double digit hire progress. Uh, right me if I’m mistaken, Igor mainly doesn’t occur. So like we had a, a very vital shift in pattern, um, and a severity of, of decline that hasn’t occurred. Have the markets that noticed these declines like New York, have they since rebounded?

Igor:
Sure. They, they’ve, um, some extra, extra strongly than others. New York Metropolis had the, the, the wildest set of swings as a result of it, it was within the high two markets by way of hire declines in 2020 and truly within the high two markets of hire progress in 2021. So I believe for those who had been a New York renter a pair years in the past, you had been simply massively confused and confused. Um, uh, San Francisco has had a little bit of a, of a slower restoration as a result of a lot demand acquired swept away within the distant work, uh, acceleration from sort of San Francisco as a, as a tech hub. However everybody actually rode the hire rebound of 2021. However this previous 12 months has actually seen much more geographic variety in what’s occurring with hire developments. The pandemic additionally introduced with it sort of this u-turn away from what we had been seeing by way of urbanization and demand simply flocking to downtown central enterprise districts. I believe renters voting with their toes are, are, are wanting far more at sort of suburbs and locations with extra leg room on the margins as nicely. So there’s been a rebound, however nothing in comparison with the sort of increase that we’ve seen in locations like Tampa, Florida, Phoenix, sort of early within the early within the pandemic,

Dave:
The from city to extra suburban demand. Mm-Hmm. , it sort of caught me off guard. I assume all the things concerning the, the pandemic caught me off guard, however I, particularly as an investor, form of had this very virtually stupidly simplistic view of the place to purchase actual property throughout this time was investing in Denver. I used to be like, the nearer I may very well be to downtown, the safer the funding. Is the checklist much less dangerous? It’s. Mm-Hmm. , and I’ve to say, as an investor, it’s gotten tougher to choose neighborhoods as a result of suburbia is simply extra plentiful.

Igor:
Sure.

Dave:
And it’s not like, you already know, it’s simpler to love draw concentric circles round downtown and be like, that is gonna be good hire progress and a bit of bit additional out shall be nonetheless good, however a bit of bit weaker after which weaker after which weaker. And now it’s like making an attempt to guess which of those suburbs is gonna see pop off, which of them are gonna endure is tremendous onerous. I imply, this can be a lengthy shot, however do you’ve gotten any, are there any developments to, like what sorts of suburbs are likely to see essentially the most progress?

Igor:
, by way of the, the sorts of locations too actually about these sort of alternatives? I believe that the main focus actually shifted from being about proximity to work, to being about proximity to facilities sort of broadly outlined, proper? I believe there’s been an actual untethering, which is only a actually elementary shift, an actual vital untethering from the place you select to, to stay and the place you select to work, proper? So 30% of totally employed Individuals, workdays are occurring at dwelling proper now. That’s not simply people which are totally distant and, and work solely on Zoom, however lots of people have not less than some days that they’re working from dwelling. You add all of it up, that’s 30% of, of totally employed days. And even these which are going into an workplace, we’re seeing, uh, we’ve been monitoring this lengthy pattern of a rise in tremendous commuting.
Individuals are simply dwelling farther from, from work they usually’re, they’re in a position to try this. Possibly they don’t need to go in as usually, so that they’re sort of untethering this choice. And I believe query turns into far more about, okay, if I don’t need to be near work, what do I wish to be near? Is it regardless of the sorts of facilities that the massive millennial era likes to be close to? Is it, is it faculties? Is it, uh, city facilities in suburban settings, uh, like, you already know, the nice breweries and eating places? So I, I believe that what I might look in direction of and the, the, after all there’s no crystal ball, there’s no onerous and quick rule, however I believe there’s been a shift away from simply work proximity primarily to think about it as play proximity or, or proximity to the opposite issues that you simply wish to, uh, sort of energy, energy your life. So I believe having a thesis round what that appears like and why a neighborhood has that sort of draw can be actually compelling and I believe mandatory since you’re proper, it has turn into a way more kinda multidimensional guessing sport of the place future renters will, will wish to be.

Dave:
That’s an ideal synopsis. Thanks, Igor. I, I believe it’s actually necessary for our viewers to listen to what Igor simply mentioned about having a thesis as a result of it, you possibly can’t simply actually guess and this, that what works in a single metro space suburb may not work in one other one. For instance, you already know, I used to stay and put money into Denver and, you already know, proximity to trails or proximity to outside actions was actually in style. I’ve lots of pals I, I grew up in, in New York, and so what you had been speaking about these city experiences in suburban environments, I do know like all my pals who’re shifting outta the town, that’s what they prioritize. So you actually need to, to grasp your market and provide you with your personal thought of what’s gonna drive demand. And for those who stay in that market, hopefully that ought to be onerous as a result of it’s like, the place do you wanna stay? The place do your pals wanna stay? The place are all of your folks shifting?

Igor:
Proper?

Dave:
And you may form of create the muse of your thesis based mostly on simply your personal private experiences.

Igor:
Mm-Hmm. . Yeah.

Dave:
All proper. Time for a fast break after which we’ll be again with extra greater information with Igor Popov, thanks for sticking with us. Let’s leap again in with Igor. Igor, thanks for form of serving to us perceive the final couple years. How would you describe 2024 so far by way of the rental market?

Igor:
Uh, 2024 has actually been a, a shift again to a market the place the renter has a bit of extra management and much more, extra choices than actually what we, what we noticed a few years in the past. Um, the massive story, the massive narrative is round a brand new wave of multifamily provide hitting the market this 12 months and subsequent. And I believe that’s actually, regardless that that’s sort of simply in largely class a largely multifamily, uh, it’s nonetheless actually sort of setting the tone for what’s occurring all throughout the totally different segments of the rental market. And simply to sort of give some context and put some numbers to it, we entered this 12 months with one million items underneath building all through the US for multifamily items alone. , wanting again 10 years in the past, that quantity was extra like 300,000, uh, getting into 2014. Now we’ve acquired one million items within the pipeline getting into this 12 months with not less than half of them hitting in 2024. And so I believe that’s actually been the first storyline that’s sort of shaping how lots of Individuals are perceiving the rental market, each on the investor aspect and on on the render aspect.

Dave:
Thanks for offering that replace. And I believe the, the headline is actually fascinating ’trigger it’s been very totally different, proper? Clearly it’s totally different in each single market, however for those who’re saying that the common hire value is up now, what did you say, uh, 12 months over 12 months proper now?

Igor:
Nicely, so really 12 months over 12 months we’re monitoring adverse, barely adverse hire progress. And once more, that’s as a result of all this new provide, uh, is, is hitting the market. We’ve been in adverse 12 months over 12 months hire progress territory for, you already know, a bit of bit over a 12 months now. Uh, we noticed in our hire index, the, the height rents had been in August of 2022. And, and we nonetheless haven’t sort of crawled again to that place, however these hire declines actually concentrated in locations like Texas, Florida, um, and among the markets which are constructing essentially the most, you have a look at the leaderboard for hire progress and it’s really dominated by lots of Midwest markets, proper? , I don’t know when the final time was that the Midwest was dominating the, the US hire progress leaderboards, however locations like Cleveland and Louisville, grand Rapids, Milwaukee, uh, these aren’t sort of at the moment huge new provide markets. Uh, they usually’re really nonetheless seeing some robust hire progress. So we’ve had occasions the place lots of the US strikes collectively, however that is actually a time the place totally different, uh, totally different markets are seeing very totally different experiences. So I is likely to be saying, Hey, it’s a bit of bit adverse, however somebody in Austin or Raleigh is likely to be feeling that it’s really fairly adverse and, and, and mm-hmm, pricing energy has actually declined. And, and a few people in Midwest northeast would possibly really be, be feeling a fairly robust hire progress market.

Dave:
Simply two fast questions. One, whenever you say adverse, how, how far are we off peak from August, 2022?

Igor:
Yeah, 2%. So only for context, we’re nonetheless 22% above the place we had been March, 2020, heading into the, the pandemic, however, however 2% off peak. So we primarily kinda reset to a brand new degree. There’s virtually no likelihood that we sort of revert to 2019 rents, however hire progress has evaporated. Mm-Hmm. . So it’s sort of been like a, you already know, sort of suppose, consider a balloon that escapes the room and goes to a room with the next ceiling and bounces round there for some time.

Dave:
And is that this simply multifamily or is that this all the things?

Igor:
So we observe primarily multifamily single household is, you already know, additionally not booming by way of rents proper now, however I believe it’s seeing stronger hire progress just isn’t feeling as direct strain from this new building. And the brand new building increase is actually concentrated in, in, in multifamily. So I believe the nearer you’re to the brand new provide that’s hitting the market, uh, simply by way of, you already know, how probably renters are to have you ever of their alternative set together with a a, a brand new lease up, uh, that’s figuring out sort of how a lot of an, of an impact this new provide’s having on rents and, and the way cool the market feels for for sure property.

Dave:
I’m glad you introduced that up as a result of it’s a query I’m at all times desirous about is in so some ways business actual property and residential actual property simply act in a different way.

Igor:
Mm-Hmm. .

Dave:
However hire is one space the place I really feel like within the Venn diagram of CRE and residential, there’s like some overlap.

Igor:
Mm-Hmm. .

Dave:
And so does that multifamily provide glut influence single household dwelling rents or duplex rents, for instance?

Igor:
Sure, I believe, I believe it, it actually does. It doesn’t have an effect on it as a lot, you already know, the shut, once more, the nearer you’re, the nearer that substitution impact shall be. However you already know, lots of renters go into their searches and not using a cussed desire for multifamily single household. A variety of renters go into their searches saying, Hey, I don’t even know if I’ll discover a place in my price range in any respect. What’s on the market?

Dave:
Mm-Hmm. .

Igor:
And so lots of renters are actually selecting between, it at all times comes down to love the, the choice making course of is gonna decide what’s ha what occurs within the macro stats. So you’ve gotten renters in Denver which are pondering, yeah, I’ll take a single household dwelling or a, a multifamily unit, like, let’s see what they’ve to supply, let’s see what the rents are. And so which means they do find yourself competing on value even when they’re not the closest substitutes.

Dave:
I’m hoping Igor you possibly can assist me clarify one thing that could be very complicated.
. So
We’re speaking a few multifamily provide acquire, proper? You, you clarify the circumstances nicely earlier than that, through the pandemic there’s these constructive elements for constructing multifamily housing. Mm-Hmm.

Igor:
.

Dave:
And now we’re saying rents are slowing as a result of there’s an excessive amount of multifamily housing on the similar time each different day within the newspaper. You examine how there’s a housing scarcity in america. Are you able to assist me sq. these two seemingly contradictory knowledge factors? ?

Igor:
Yeah, completely. I imply, I believe there’s a, there’s a timeframe part after which there’s a persona or demographic part. , generally the analogy I’ll give, this can be a very California analogy. ’trigger we had been going by a drought, uh, a couple of whereas, a couple of months. You, you possibly can have a interval of heavy rain, it fills up the reservoirs a bit, however on the, you already know, the, the storm passes and also you’re nonetheless in a drought. Um, I believe that’s actually what lots of these markets are, are, are feeling. And so what which means is on the margins, you’ll see rents fall, however they may not fall to the diploma that possibly they might in a, in a extra unconstrained market that had, um, uh, extra constructing alternative or much less restriction on, on building. You would possibly see that, uh, with the households which are out there as we speak, they’re feeling lots of choices.
However, uh, there are lots of households that aren’t being created as a result of the inexpensive stock isn’t there. For instance, one, one group I at all times form of level to, as a result of I believe they’re so necessary within the housing market, we’ve a big inhabitants of younger adults dwelling at dwelling, dwelling with their dad and mom, proper? So 17% of 25 to 34 12 months olds stay at dwelling with their dad and mom. We final noticed that in 1940, proper? Only for context. Uh, and so you’ve gotten lots of people sitting on the sidelines of the housing market as a result of they primarily both can’t afford it or wish to put their cash, cash elsewhere. They usually don’t even make it into statistics about renters as a result of they’re, they’re not renters but. They’re, they’re, they’re dwelling at dwelling. They’re not taking part out there, however totally different market circumstances can actually draw them in. Uh, and that creates a giant kinda alternative for a extra dynamic housing market as nicely. So I believe it’s only a query concerning the scale that you simply’re . The extra you zoom out, the extra the image seems to be unders equipped.

Dave:
That’s so useful. And I really like that analogy of a flood. Clearly nobody desires a flood, nevertheless it’s sort of the state of affairs, proper? , throughout a flood you’ve gotten manner an excessive amount of water. Mm-hmm. . However on the finish of it, you continue to may not have sufficient water, which is actually what you’re saying is going on. That’s an excellent technique to put it. Thanks. We’ve to take a break, however after we’re again, I’m gonna ask Igor when he expects new multifamily provide to drive up and what which means for rents within the close to future.
We’re again with condominium checklist chief economist, Igor Popov. One of many issues that I actually like as an analyst and an investor about multifamily and about rents is that whenever you’re speaking concerning the provide downside is you by no means know what’s gonna occur within the economic system, however you sort of know what’s occurring with multifamily provide. Mm-Hmm. as a result of folks apply for permits and it takes years to construct multifamily. And so it’s why even in 2022, lots of analysts and economists had been saying, Hey, hire progress is gonna decelerate as a result of we all know this glut of provide is approaching now. The place not less than the place I’m sitting in 2024, I’m virtually pondering the other’s gonna occur. , beginning when in 2022 and charges went up, constructing circumstances utterly modified, and now the pipeline for brand spanking new provide appears utterly dry. To butcher our analogy even additional, we’re going right into a drought once more by way of new provide, initially, is that the way you see it as nicely?

Igor:
Sure. That’s, that’s how I see it. And I believe the questions are round when it’ll come and the way lengthy it’ll final. Um, I believe it’s a, it’s a when and never an if as a result of you already know, we’re, we’re dwelling by a giant provide wave proper now, and there’s not one other one approaching the heels of it. And we’re seeing that in multifamily permits coming down, completions outpacing permits by a really robust fee. There’s some disagreement about this, however I believe my, my view is that 2025 will nonetheless really feel quite a bit like 2024 by way of ample provide coming on-line. Once we get into 2026, it’s fairly clear that the items which may make {that a} provide wealthy 12 months, they’re simply not breaking floor on the similar fee. Mm-hmm. , um, that, that, that would want. Now the rate of interest dynamics are gonna decide how lengthy that’s going to final or fee’s gonna come down sufficient to the place there’s really gonna be sort of a, a wholesome pipeline coming in after that. However, um, that, that continues to be to be, to be seen.

Dave:
Yeah. It’s, it’s fascinating to, to form of take into consideration as a result of when you can see it coming, it’s onerous to form of steadiness all the various variables, clearly single household provide, demand, rates of interest, the labor market, it’s, it’s complicated. So regardless that you see this, uh, dearth of building occurring, the implications aren’t tremendous clear. However Igor, I’m curious, I’m gonna put you on the spot. Do you’ve gotten a forecast or any ideas on how hire progress will play out within the subsequent few years?

Igor:
I believe subsequent 12 months will nonetheless be very sluggish 12 months for hire progress. Primarily. I believe the, this actually wholesome provide pipeline, it’s not gonna be all launched this 12 months. So I believe you’re nonetheless gonna see lots of new lease ups hitting the market, particularly within the Sunbelt, uh, locations like Austin, Colorado Springs, uh, and the mountain west, uh, the Florida markets. Um, and you already know, once more, demand is tougher to foretell, however I believe that, you already know, with charges coming down, I believe that’ll give some, some enhance. So demand has been actually wholesome, however I, I don’t suppose it’ll be so dramatic that it’s going to actually overpower, uh, the form of tug of struggle with, with, with provide. After which I believe issues will actually begin to choose again up from a hire progress perspective, possibly within the late 2025, however actually in, in, in 2026 now. We’ll see what occurs. I, you already know, these previous few years have been, uh, nice for researchers, dangerous for forecasters

Dave:
, yeah. One shock after one other.

Igor:
Yeah, precisely. One shock after one other. And it’s, you already know, who’s the least mistaken? However I do suppose that from what I’m seeing, the seesaw between provide and demand remains to be going to be, you already know, comparatively balanced, however nonetheless geared in direction of provide subsequent 12 months and positively by the top of this 12 months. As a result of I, I, I believe that we’re the, the housing market can be so seasonal that I believe when you, when you sort of miss the go round of summer season shifting season, it’s onerous to generate lots of warmth. Um, and the market, I believe coming into the cool months, people that haven’t crammed vacancies, property administration corporations that wish to form of get greater occupancy earlier than the vacations are gonna be reducing rents. Um, after which the query is actually gonna be round how robust can demand be to sort of counteract the provision that’s nonetheless being launched from the pipeline come spring, summer season shifting season of 2025.

Dave:
Thanks for baking a daring prediction. I ask everybody on the present to make a prediction. Not everyone seems to be prepared to do it. , whenever you say resuming hire progress in 2025, do you assume, nicely, like, you already know, this elusive thought of a standard market, like may we possibly simply see three to five% hire progress, such as you form of we’re coming to count on within the, within the 20 tons not less than?

Igor:
I believe, I believe so. I believe we’re form of oscillating a a round that. I believe we’ll get again to that in some unspecified time in the future. , um, uh, we’re not gonna be simply, uh, uh, seesaw between excessive hire progress or declines for a very long time, however that’s the place I should be trustworthy and say, I’ve made that prediction earlier than and it’s taken longer than I believe many people thought to form of get again to one thing that feels extra like a, a clip at which rents are rising in step with different costs and output within the economic system. Proper. Which is actually sort of what, what I believe regular would seem like.

Dave:
Superior. Nice. Nicely, Igor, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us as we speak. This has been a brilliant, uh, useful context and lesson on purple progress within the economic system. Is there the rest, uh, that you simply’ve been engaged on a division checklist, you or your workforce that you simply suppose our viewers of actual property traders ought to know?

Igor:
Oh, nicely, I imply, we’ve a ton of, uh, you already know, instruments, knowledge for obtain. Um, and, and so yeah, for those who go to the condominium checklist analysis weblog, simply condominium checklist.com/analysis, I’ll put in a plug. Uh, a lot of, uh, you possibly can observe our newest, newest studies and, and likewise knowledge releases there. So

Dave:
Igor, this has been an enormous assist. Thanks once more for becoming a member of us as we speak.

Igor:
Thanks a lot. I had lots of enjoyable. Thanks Dave.

Dave:
In fact. And thanks all a lot for listening. I’m Dave Meyer for BiggerPockets and we’ll see you quickly for one more episode of the BiggerPockets podcast.