Maybe essentially the most stunning factor about Donald Trump sitting down with podcast heavyweight Joe Rogan on Friday was that it hadn’t already occurred. The previous president has been on an expansive nontraditional media tour in the course of the 2024 race, sitting down with a spread of podcasters, however typically these concentrating on younger males searching for the Bro vote.
Serving to chart the course is one in every of Trump’s most trusted advisers, Jason Miller, who laid out the marketing campaign’s method in an interview with the Playbook Deep Dive podcast.
Miller and Trump have a protracted historical past collectively. He’s labored on every of Trump’s campaigns since 2016, in roles starting from comms guru to senior strategist, and he isn’t afraid to elaborate on the marketing campaign’s technique or defend Trump’s most controversial feedback.
The dive into various media has been a part of a bid to melt Trump’s picture, and if the tight polls are to be believed, it’s working.
As for who will get credit score for which podcasts the presidential candidate goes on, Miller, a longtime Trump loyalist, stated it’s been a bunch effort on the marketing campaign however gave a particular shoutout to Trump’s 18-year-old son, Barron.
“Hats off to the younger man,” Miller stated. “Each single suggestion he’s had has turned out to be absolute rankings gold that’s damaged the Web.”
This dialog has been edited for size and readability by Deep Dive Producer Kara Tabor and Senior Producer Alex Keeney. You’ll be able to take heed to the complete Playbook Deep Dive podcast interview right here:
Your marketing campaign has spent the previous few months leaning into these long-form podcasts which have virtually nothing to do with politics. Trump’s been speaking about sports activities, household, habit points — it is a very totally different technique than we have seen from most politicians.
Inform us a bit about pushing the common conventional media apart and specializing in these podcasts?
I’ve received three separate solutions inside there. One, with regard to conventional media, I feel The Wall Road Journal research that got here out every week or so in the past confirmed that President Trump has finished both two occasions as many media interviews or two and a half occasions as many mainstream media interviews as Kamala Harris since she grew to become the nominee for president. So we’re nonetheless doing numerous the normal media.
However if you have a look at the affect of podcasts, YouTube exhibits and nontraditional media — a part of the factor is you are reaching voters the place they’re at. I imply, you’ve gotten tens of tens of millions of People right here who, as a lot as I like it, are by no means going to click on on Politico.com or activate the CBS Night Information.
You could have tens of millions of People who get their information from social media, possibly they get it from podcasts. Additionally, to the decentralization of media, persons are capable of extra carefully lock in on matters and concern areas that attraction to them. And it isn’t all of the enjoyable exhibits like former wrestlers or Barstool Sports activities-type exhibits. We additionally do issues like Dave Ramsey, who’s the one finest client finance podcaster within the enterprise and Patrick Guess-David, who has the one finest entrepreneur-based podcast of anybody in podcast media.
As somebody who’s a veteran of each the 2016 and 2020 campaigns, one of many variations is that we could not have as lots of the unscripted, freewheeling retail stops and issues like that in 2020 that we might in 2016. And the reason being merely if you’re president of the US, there is not any flexibility. There’s a lot Secret Service.
There was additionally Covid, proper?
You additionally had Covid. So we could not do numerous the issues that President Trump had finished. In some ways, it isn’t as if it is a model new factor for President Trump. It’s simply one thing he did fairly often in 2016, relating to retail stops and nontraditional media that he could not do in 2020.
But in addition, that is the pattern. That is why a few of the greatest names in media are actually doing podcasts and such, as a result of that is the place so many citizens are getting their info.
It additionally looks as if there’s been an intention to humanize him in a manner that maybe individuals forgot: That he was a celeb, an entertainer, a dad and a grandpa. What was the second the place you stated, “OK, we actually have to lean into this human facet of Trump?”
We did it from the very first time that he was on the path. I hadn’t even rejoined the marketing campaign at this level in January of 2023. However we went to South Carolina and New Hampshire, to 2 stops in sooner or later. And whereas in South Carolina, we took President Trump to, I imagine it was Zesto’s in West Columbia, South Carolina — an ice cream and burger place.
As I used to be wanting at the start of his marketing campaign and saying, “What can we wish to make sure that we get again to that was in 2016 versus 2020?” Primary was the unscripted moments. And so after we took the president there, it took off like wildfire. After all, after we went to East Palestine a few weeks later, we went to the McDonald’s there. These had been nice viral moments. And so actually from his very first journey as an introduced candidate on this election cycle we began working within the retail and the unscripted stops.
Are there individuals in your marketing campaign who recurrently hear to those podcasts he’s been interviewed on? Are his sons concerned?
Group effort. Barron has been very concerned in recommending quite a few the podcasts that we must always do. I received to let you know, hats off to the younger man. Each single suggestion he is had has turned out to be absolute rankings gold that is damaged the Web. He is finished an important job. I’ve actually beneficial some. We have now different group members who beneficial podcasts. But in addition typically it is the opposite manner round the place possibly the president has a relationship with the individual, say, just like the Nelk Boys, or possibly it is Tyrus, the Fox Information co-host of The Gutfeld Present. So it form of comes from each instructions. Nevertheless it’s actually turned out to be one thing that I feel has labored to our benefit.
In the beginning of Trump doing these podcasts, when he spoke to Adin Ross, he appeared like he was kind of simply internet hosting a Trump rally on a podcast. However across the time he received to the Theo Von interview and the Andrew Schultz interview, he grew to become rather more dynamic and emotionally partaking. Was there some kind of teaching over time on this? Did one thing change in him?
Lots of occasions these are only a issue of both the connection with the host or the format of the interview. President Trump goes to be President Trump when he sits down for an interview. Generally there are some interviewers who’ve actually perfected the interview model. Nevertheless it’s undoubtedly one thing that we will proceed to do by Election Day, and I might see that after President Trump wins that he does going ahead.
So no person ever stated to him, “You do not have to consider this as a rally. Simply go in and have a dialog?”
When you work for President Trump, you don’t say one thing like that. The president’s at all times going to have his personal model. It is positive if somebody desires to suggest some extent to convey up or one thing. However he has his personal model. He is aware of what he is doing on this.
Any person informed me that you just all had been within the room for Theo Von’s podcast and when Trump began speaking to him about doing cocaine and requested “What’s that like?” individuals began laughing fairly arduous.
I feel what individuals actually are drawn to after they see the human facet of President Trump, whether or not it is his life experiences — when he talks about his brother and his brother’s challenges with habit, clearly his brother died from issues introduced on by very extreme alcoholism — I believed the Bryson DeChambeau golf cart interview, I believed was absolute gold.
Why was that so efficient?
As a result of it simply confirmed that he is somebody who has enjoyable. It’s that relatability issue, that he is usually a regular individual and have these conversations. If you’re capable of talk the relatability, then voters really feel much more strongly that the insurance policies that you just’re pushing for are being finished since you wish to assist them. It is one other manner of serving to to enhance that message.
Lots of Republicans I’ve talked to in the course of the marketing campaign have stated that they need Trump would speak much less. However you took the alternative technique. He is speaking extra and it appears to be working not less than on this format.
And that was one other factor that we determined proper on the very starting of this marketing campaign. After we’re taking a look at what labored in ‘16, what labored in ‘20 and vice versa, not solely can we wish to get again to our 2016 roots so far as a few of the rallies, but additionally the unscripted moments. However we wished to ensure that is going to be all Trump, on a regular basis. The reason is that the media goes to deal with Trump as a result of Trump generates clicks.
He is additionally a presidential candidate.
However actually, I’ve had numerous editors and reporters inform me that, “if we are able to put ‘Trump’ within the title, then it should get clicks after which my bosses might be glad.” So figuring out that each single factor that he does, each single day, persons are taking a look at learn how to get Trump into the headline, that we wish to make it possible for it is headlines and it is tales and points that we wish to be speaking about how that helps his marketing campaign versus simply permitting others do this for us.
How central do you assume this technique of utilizing nontraditional media has been to Trump catching as much as Harris within the polls?
I feel it is vital. I feel additionally President Trump actually drilling down and specializing in the financial system and on immigration has additionally been an enormous key. I additionally assume that Kamala Harris has made quite a few actual strategic errors. I feel her going to the border was an enormous strategic error.
Why so?
As a result of it reminded everybody that she’s the one who wrecked the border. And in addition that day, these ICE numbers got here out exhibiting the variety of murderers and criminals that had been free within the nation. And the Harris marketing campaign was inept at responding to these.
JD Vance additionally has been very useful. His debate that he had with Tim Walz I believed went very effectively for us. However I feel this Kamala Harris technique of going out and doing an entire bunch of media has actually backfired. I imply, who would have thought Sunny Hostin from The View actually killed Kamala Harris’ candidacy? However you could possibly make the case that Sunny did that.
You are referring to the query of how she was totally different from Biden when she did not have a solution?
Yeah. I imply, not precisely a trick query.
Your marketing campaign stated she was too rooster to do a bunch of mainstream interviews for a very long time. She has now put herself on the market, together with happening Fox Information. Why would not Trump do MSNBC or one thing of that nature?
The president’s been doing numerous confrontational interviews. I imply, check out the interview with John Micklethwait, the editor-in-chief of Bloomberg, simply final week on the Chicago Financial Membership. President Trump went and did the Univision city corridor. And President Trump has additionally been doing press conferences on a regular basis. These press conferences will go an hour, hour and a half. Kamala Harris has nonetheless but to do an actual press convention in her whole time because the Democratic nominee.
By way of different get-out-the-vote efforts, I’ve heard from somebody within the marketing campaign that you just personally are the one lining up rappers’ endorsements. Are you able to verify that you just’re associates with Waka Flocka Flame, Kodak Black and 50 Cent?
I want. Sadly, now that I am somewhat bit older, my rappers are nonetheless like Chuck D from Public Enemy and Ice Dice and a few of the ones I’ve listened to in my adolescence. There are different group members who’re associates with them. However, no, I am unable to take credit score for any of that.
Lots of people have stated this race goes to be principally 50/50. They do not know who’s going to win. What would you say the chances are proper now that Trump wins?
I feel that is going to be very shut coming down the homestretch. It is a divided nation. That being stated, I might a lot relatively be in our sneakers than Kamala Harris’ for a few causes. One, President Trump is at considerably higher polling positioning proper now than he was in 2020 or 2016. We see the early vote numbers which can be on our facet.
However all of that being stated, I don’t [put] something by the Harris marketing campaign or some of us within the media to drag any try on the proverbial October shock or to attempt to censor or shut issues down like we noticed with Hunter’s laptop computer 4 years in the past. So we’re treating this as if we’re behind by one level and preventing all through Election Day.
Talking of October surprises, Trump’s former chief of employees, John Kelly, clearly made some waves by accusing Trump on the document of denigrating wounded troopers and praising Adolf Hitler. And he argued that Trump has “rejected what America is all about” and is principally the final definition of a fascist. What’s your response to that?
Yeah, complete bullshit. John Kelly’s a loser. Individuals contained in the room say that this didn’t occur. We have now members of the family of the fallen soldier who’s being honored saying that that is B.S. We have now a lawyer for the household saying that is B.S. So I’ll belief the people who find themselves within the room, not a bitter, fired former staffer who clearly has an ax to grind. And to come back out within the remaining two weeks of a marketing campaign, to go and launch a political assault like this, invoking the identify of a fallen soldier and creating falsely some story about President Trump, I feel is admittedly fairly shameful.
You assume a four-star Marine normal made up this story to harm Trump?
Sure.
Simply because he was fired? Why would he do this?
As a result of he hates President Trump. He is clearly triggered. If President Trump had been a fraction of the negative-type person who Common Kelly appears to explain him as, why did not he stop on the spot? Why did not he? As a result of it is complete bullshit. All people is aware of it is bullshit. And if he had been real and honest, he would have stop on the spot, not ready till he received fired.
Is there a priority that headlines like this — and Liz Cheney being out on the marketing campaign path with Kamala Harris proper now — might change the trajectory of the race on the final minute? Make the nationwide dialog find yourself proper the place Harris desires it to be about Trump’s health for workplace?
In no way. In actual fact, I am glad that they are going down this path, particularly with Liz Cheney. If you wish to ship Liz Cheney, daughter of the architect of the Iraq struggle, to Michigan, you understand what? The place can I pitch in? In actual fact, subsequent time, Liz, if you happen to’re listening, I’ll purchase you and Kamala Harris lunch. I would really like nothing else than for Liz Cheney to spend day-after-day between now and the election in Michigan campaigning. You wish to discuss one thing that is going to alienate Arab People and get individuals pissed off? And the opposite factor, too, is no person likes Liz Cheney. Republicans don’t love her. Democrats don’t love her. The Cheney identify is radioactive.
You do not assume that there is a fraction of Republicans who’re skeptical of Trump who do like her?
Not Liz Cheney. Clearly, nobody’s going to get 100% of their occasion’s vote. I feel President Trump is getting one thing like 96 p.c of the Republican vote. Kamala Harris is getting a decrease share of the Democrat vote. No one likes Liz Cheney. I don’t even assume individuals with the final identify of “Cheney” like Liz Cheney.
President Trump is operating on how he will enhance everybody’s lives. President Trump goes to repair the financial system to make your life higher. President Trump goes to safe the border to make your life higher. That is a really clear and compelling closing message. If Kamala Harris’ closing message is, “Hey, here is the daughter of the architect of the Iraq struggle,” that isn’t a very good closing message.
Was there ever some extent in the course of the marketing campaign cycle the place you stated, “Okay, due to the abortion concern, we all know we will have a difficulty with girls. So let’s make sure that we’re targeted on turning out these males?” That actually appears to be the best way we’re all decoding your technique.
No. When you have a look at the general public polling there is a purpose why even Kamala Harris has tried to dip her toe within the podcast world, as a result of many of those impartial males who don’t observe politics on a regular basis, do not observe essentially conventional information shops day-after-day, are one of many greatest key movable voting blocs which can be on the market. So it is a recognition that these are lots of the movable voters that we’re going after.
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