Rachel Feltman: For Scientific American’s Science Shortly, that is Rachel Feltman. As most of you listening to this most likely know, I’m fairly into podcasts. However my first experiences with the format—or not less than those that basically hooked me—weren’t the science reveals you would possibly anticipate. I first acquired into audio by listening to horror podcasts. I’d creep myself out listening to The Black Tapes and The Magnus Archives, feeling so viscerally spooked that generally I truly had hassle sleeping.
Even in case you’re not a horror fan your self, you possibly can’t deny that people on the entire appear to essentially like getting scared. That’s particularly obvious this time of yr, what with all of the haunted homes and spooky hayrides on provide for Halloween. However what’s it about concern that pulls us in?
My visitor at the moment is an skilled on exactly that. Coltan Scrivner is a behavioral scientist on the Leisure Concern Lab at Aarhus College in Denmark and the Psychology Division at Arizona State College. He investigates what he calls the “evolutionary and psychological underpinnings of morbid curiosity and our fascination with the darker facet of life.”
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Coltan, thanks a lot for approaching to speak at the moment.
Coltan Scrivner: Yeah, glad to be right here.
Feltman: So what acquired you curious about learning concern?
Scrivner: After I was in graduate college, I simply took an interest on this thought that individuals generally go and watch violence for enjoyable when, in virtually each different case, violence is seen as immoral, is pushed to the sides of society, is punished. However there are very circumscribed instances all through historical past and throughout cultures the place violence shouldn’t be solely okay however generally celebrated.
Feltman: Mm.
Scrivner: And so I began out sort of with that, what appeared like a paradox, there. And over time that sort of developed into: “Properly, folks additionally scare themselves for enjoyable, proper? Why do they do this?” And that sort of meshed with the curiosity in violence. And over time that form of developed into this analysis program that I’ve on morbid curiosity.
Feltman: So what will we learn about morbid curiosity? Why do people like stuff that scares them or grosses them out?
Scrivner: Properly, most individuals don’t benefit from the emotions of being grossed out, for instance. However lots of people will look in case you say, “Oh, my gosh, that is so gross; it’s important to see this,” proper? So it’s sort of a bizarre factor. And, you realize, one factor that I’ve discovered from my analysis is that lots of people, particularly in terms of concern, might not essentially benefit from the feeling of concern itself. Some folks do: adrenaline junkies, for instance, folks, like, who like skydiving or who like curler coasters or issues like that. And lots of people—like numerous horror followers even, for instance—truly don’t essentially benefit from the feeling of being afraid, however they do benefit from the feeling of overcoming that concern …
Feltman: Hmm.
Scrivner: They benefit from the form of, you realize, self-confidence you get from tackling one thing tough. And I feel, you realize, people see this in different areas of their life, nevertheless it’s attention-grabbing, too, that it reveals up on this form of leisure sector as properly.
Feltman: Are we the one animals who like getting scared on objective?
Scrivner: I don’t assume so. You realize, it’s at all times onerous to inform what different animals take pleasure in versus don’t take pleasure in and simply form of—it’s onerous to interpret behaviors, proper, in that approach. However we’re actually not the one animals that put themselves in scary conditions once they don’t need to or watch scary issues once they don’t need to.
So for instance, in case you’re out [in the] Serengeti, you would possibly see some Thomson’s gazelles grazing about, and also you would possibly see a cheetah sort of within the background, which is certainly one of their pure predators. And what you’ll see is that—you realize, you’d anticipate if—you realize, I’m not a gazelle, but when I used to be a gazelle, I might assume, “Okay, if I noticed a cheetah, I ought to most likely run each single time,” proper?
However that’s not truly what you see. As a substitute what you see is that a few of the gazelles will truly cease and observe the cheetah. And it’s not random which gazelles do that; it’s truly the adolescents and the subadults, so sort of these gazelles who’re younger and wholesome and match and might escape if one thing occurred however possibly don’t have as a lot publicity to their pure predators but.
So the belief there may be that they’re attempting to be taught one thing about their pure predators as a result of, you realize, cheetahs, like most cats, spend about 23 out of 24 hours of the day simply lounging, proper, and never truly searching or consuming or doing the rest. And so it’d be fairly inefficient for prey animals normally to at all times run each time they noticed a predator. So as an alternative what animals are inclined to do is collect details about potential threats, specifically their predators.
Feltman: That’s tremendous attention-grabbing. What about primates? Do we now have any analysis on how they interact with scary stuff?
Scrivner: Yeah, so there’s truly a reasonably outdated commentary of what I might take into account morbid curiosity in primates. However [Charles] Darwin talks about it. He talks about listening to of this story the place a person had a [box] with … snake[s]…, reside snake[s] in it, which clearly is a menace to most primates. He was in a zoo, and he would sort of set the bag down, and the primates would come up one after the other and peek contained in the bag, shriek, run about. However as an alternative of the opposite primates operating away, they might come up and do the identical factor. It’s sort of just like the “Right here’s this scary factor; it’s important to see this,” proper?
Feltman: Yeah.
Scrivner: I imply, I don’t know in the event that they have been having fun with it, proper? That’s at all times onerous to say. However they have been actually participating in that habits deliberately, figuring out that it was one thing that scared one of many troop members. And Darwin truly replicated this experiment as a result of he was so intrigued by it.
So, I imply, there’s some proof there. There’s some extra trendy proof, I feel with vervet monkeys, that they do that as properly; they examine predators slightly than simply at all times operating away. There’s, after all, some proof in, I feel, chimpanzees and, and possibly gorillas, too, that if there’s a useless conspecific someplace, they’ll truly sort of go and poke it and prod at it, and, and there’s sort of an intrigue or a curiosity there about what it’s or what occurred.
Feltman: Mm, so I do know you’ve got performed some work on the thought of scary play. May you inform me extra about what that’s and what profit it has for us?
Scrivner: Yeah, so scary play is, I feel, simply an extension of morbid curiosity, proper? It’s once you take one thing scary or harmful or gross or probably threatening and you place it in a playful context to be able to higher perceive it and form of take pleasure in that have, versus simply tolerate that have.
So like these monkeys, for instance, peering within a bag with a snake in it, I might—you realize, that’s one thing very near scary play as a result of they stored going again and doing it and appeared to, you realize, be afraid whereas additionally intrigued and thrilled.
However after all, you realize, no species engages in scary play fairly like people do, and that’s as a result of we now have storytelling, proper? Principally, we will create fictional eventualities the place we’re not truly in any hazard. So we’re not peeking within a bag with a actual snake in it; we’re watching another person do this on a display screen, proper, or in a e book, once they’re—we’re imagining the state of affairs or listening to a narrative of somebody who did that.
And so what we will do then is we will take, you realize, virtually a quite a few variety of eventualities the place there’s one thing threatening occurring, and we will tweak it and play with it and, and make it on this very particular format or this very particular storyline, and we will sort of play with that. We are able to act it out via theater or via video games like tag or hide-and-seek, that are fairly primary predator-prey interactions, proper? When you watch youngsters play video games like tag or hide-and-seek, there’s at all times one one who’s “it,” who’s searching the opposite folks, and in the event that they catch you, you’re “it,” otherwise you’re out, proper?
And so I feel, you realize, people do that in, in every kind of various methods, whether or not it’s via bodily form of rough-and-tumble play or via imaginative tales: via video video games or films or other forms of storytelling. We interact in every kind of scary eventualities once they’re comparatively protected—and, usually take pleasure in it.
Feltman: Yeah, and what do you assume a few of the form of, I don’t know, evolutionary or private advantages of which might be?
Scrivner: Yeah, properly, you realize, if—in different animals, the advantages of one thing like predator inspection, the place you’re truly watching the predator, is to find out about threats, proper? And I feel that’s most likely true in people, possibly much less so now that we now have—you realize, most of our scary play comes via fictional eventualities which will or might not ever exist.
However actually, we will interact in scary play that mimics real-life eventualities. You realize, we noticed this, I might say, in 2020 with the pandemic. You had Contagion, which was, at the moment, I feel a nine-year-old film …
Feltman: Mm.
Scrivner: That sort of fell into obscurity. I imply, it was sort of well-liked when it got here out, nevertheless it rapidly fell into obscurity, after which in March of 2020 it turned [one of] the most-watched film[s] on this planet, you realize, and I don’t assume that’s a coincidence, proper? Folks have been in search of out—in some methods, cognitively taking part in with—you realize, what occurs throughout a world pandemic, and the closest factor they might discover to that was Contagion.
However I feel there are different advantages as properly apart from simply, you realize, actually studying what to do in sure eventualities. I feel the most important profit truly comes out of your capability to handle emotions of concern and anxiousness. As a result of in case you set one thing in a playful body, it permits you to sort of step again and pause and gather your self and really feel these feelings with out the related hazard with them. And what that permits you to do is sort of apply coping with these feelings—apply feeling afraid, apply feeling anxious—and apply sort of regulating these.
And we see that, you realize, in—there’s some analysis out of the Video games—I feel it’s the Video games for Emotional and Psychological Well being Lab. They’ve created a recreation referred to as MindLight that does precisely that; it’s a scary recreation for teenagers. They put on a EEG band, and it offers them some, some biofeedback. And principally, the children play this scary recreation and, you realize, need to face these completely different sorts of monsters, and in the event that they get too anxious, it’ll have ’em pause and apply sure sorts of methods from cognitive-behavioral remedy and sort of get via that scary second in order that they’ll proceed the sport and play via to the tip. And it’s been proven to be, you realize, as efficient as cognitive-behavioral remedy in decreasing anxiousness, which is fairly unbelievable as a result of that’s, like, the gold customary for decreasing and treating anxiousness.
Feltman: Yeah, very cool. What do you assume folks can be taught from the truth that, you realize, we now have this actually attention-grabbing, very outdated relationship with morbid curiosity?
Scrivner: I feel lots of people, you realize, once they first expertise that, or, you realize, let’s say somebody is a horror fan, it may be sort of alienating if different folks aren’t horror followers and so they don’t perceive, you realize, “Oh, this particular person likes films the place individuals are dying or the place there’s blood and gore, in order that they should be a psychopath or haven’t any empathy.” And, you realize, my analysis reveals that that’s truly virtually, if something, the other: horror followers not solely have just about the identical ranges of empathy as different folks, they really excel in sure sorts of empathy …
Feltman: Mm-hmm.
Scrivner: Like cognitive empathy or perspective taking.
And so I feel, you realize, a few of the analysis that I’ve performed possibly, in some methods, would possibly calm some nerves, each of people who find themselves morbidly curious and individuals who aren’t and are involved about their buddy or member of the family who’s, proper?
I imply, like something, you realize, you possibly can at all times take a persona trait too far. You realize, if in case you have—any even useful persona trait or useful trait can at all times be taken too far and ultimately change into psychopathological, nevertheless it doesn’t appear to be the case that, you realize, even excessive ranges of morbid curiosity are related to that—any greater than every other trait.
Feltman: What are a few of the massive questions you’re nonetheless hoping to reply about concern and morbid curiosity?
Scrivner: Properly, I feel there’s fairly a number of. One of many issues I’m engaged on now—my form of essential speculation in numerous my analysis is that individuals use scary play to assist them apply, once more, feeling afraid, feeling anxious and, like, understanding how they react in instances of concern. However what’s attention-grabbing in a few of the analysis I’ve performed, in some current research I’ve performed at haunted homes is that, you realize, folks do these experiences with others more often than not.
Feltman: Mm-hmm.
Scrivner: And so you can truly be studying about potential romantic companions, for instance, and the way they react in instances of hysteria or concern, potential pals, potential allies. So not solely are you studying about your self, you is likely to be studying one thing about different folks round you.
And I feel, after all, it’s, you realize, simply persevering with the work on understanding how scary play would possibly truly assist folks overcome emotions of hysteria—or in some instances, even despair or, or PTSD—and understanding why it really works for some folks and, and possibly doesn’t work instantly for different folks in order that, you realize, these experiences would possibly be capable to be tailor-made in order that they’ve a broader attraction but in addition are simpler extra broadly.
Feltman: And do you’ve got any recommendation for individuals who really feel like they’re prohibitively not into scary stuff [laughs]?
I, personally, I really like horror films; I’m additionally very vulnerable to them. I’m, like, the one that goes to a horror film after which screams at each bounce scare and may’t sleep with the lights off for a number of weeks afterwards, so it’s a really—I’ve, have a really advanced relationship with them. However for people who’re like, “I don’t get it in any respect, and I—there’s a lot media I can’t interact with,” is there any method to get much less petrified of scary stuff?
Scrivner: I feel a typical mistake folks make, in the event that they’re actually afraid of horror and so they need to possibly get into it or possibly overcome that, a typical mistake they make is that they bounce into one thing approach too scary, proper? It’d be like if I used to be attempting to be taught a brand new ability and I jumped in on the intermediate stage as an alternative of on the newbie stage.
And so I feel one factor folks can do is definitely simply ease themselves in with sort of campy horror movies, you realize, ones which might be, like, not too scary, sort of foolish. And over time …
Feltman: Proper, possibly …
Scrivner: Yeah …
Feltman: Evil Useless …
Scrivner: Precisely.
Feltman: Is an effective place to begin.
Scrivner: Even The Evil Useless would possibly even be too—you realize, it’s, it’s fairly …
Feltman: That’s true.
Scrivner: However it’s campy—it’s so campy—nevertheless it’s nice due to that, proper? It’s—it’s sort of this, like, virtually welcoming sort of movie due to that, proper? It at all times eases the strain with the silliness.
However I might, I might be curious to listen to why do you—why are you curious about going to a horror film if it causes you nightmares or causes you to scream?
Feltman: Yeah, it’s such an attention-grabbing factor for me. I feel, initially, I did sort of bounce into horror that I used to be probably not prepared for [laughs], and that simply creeped me out an excessive amount of. However I feel I really like gothic horror as a style. I actually like, you realize, form of, like, advanced, creepy tales. As a author I’m actually fascinated with horror due to, like, the best way it offers with feelings and the sort of tales you possibly can inform with horror. In order that’s additionally why I really like consuming it. And I feel I simply—I’ve at all times had an actual, like, hair-trigger bounce scare response. A buddy can bounce out and scare me, and I can see them coming, and I’ll nonetheless [laughs]—they’ll nonetheless get me.
So I feel that’s form of the battle with me, is that I’ve a really robust, like, physiological response to horror, however the themes, I feel, are actually attention-grabbing to me. And I—there may be additionally that rush of surviving the bounce scare can also be positively a giant half.
I like creepy stuff. I like bizarre stuff, so [laughs] …
Scrivner: Yeah, I feel—you realize, so I did a research a number of years in the past at a haunted home in, in Denmark, and the aim of the research was truly to see: “Are there completely different sorts of horror followers?” As a result of for a very long time …
Feltman: Mm.
Scrivner: The idea was that: “Properly, everybody who likes horror likes it as a result of they love feeling afraid. They’re adrenaline junkies.” And that was sort of the default reply for therefore lengthy, however there was actually not numerous proof for that. It didn’t appear true to me primarily based on the analysis I used to be doing, and so I performed this research with some colleagues on the Leisure Concern Lab, and what we discovered that—is that there are not less than three sorts of horror followers, you realize, probably extra, however there are the adrenaline junkies. That’s one portion of them, or one portion of horror followers.
However then there’s a second portion that we’ve referred to as the “white knucklers.” So in case you squeeze your knuckles collectively in concern, you sort of get this white shade throughout your knuckles, proper? That’s the place that got here from. And people folks have been actually afraid in the course of the haunted home. However once they got here out, they mentioned, you realize, “I actually loved feeling like I might get via this,” proper? That’s sort of that feeling of confidence.
After which there was a 3rd type that we didn’t fairly anticipate. We anticipated the primary two varieties as a result of we had some proof that each of these existed. However there was a 3rd type that got here out, and we referred to as them the “darkish copers.” And we referred to as them that as a result of these folks appear to be utilizing horror as a method to take care of tough feelings. So that you talked about, you realize, horror is just a little bit distinctive in that it will possibly take care of sure sorts of eventualities and feelings that different genres can’t actually take care of in the identical approach.
Feltman: Mm-hmm.
Scrivner: And I feel lots of people appear to make use of horror as a method to work via a few of these tough or tough feelings—or feelings that simply aren’t present in different genres a lot.
Feltman: Completely, yeah, no, I’m positively someplace between these final two. All my favourite horrors, like, the Scooby-Doo masks comes off …
Scrivner: Yeah.
Feltman: And it was childhood trauma the entire time, you realize [laughs]?
Scrivner: Yeah [laughs].
Feltman: This was so enjoyable, particularly on condition that we’re, you realize, in spooky season. So thanks a lot for approaching to talk.
Scrivner: Positive, glad to. Thanks.
Feltman: That’s all for at the moment’s spooky installment. We’ll be again on Friday to talk with a number of Scientific American editors about how your journey to the polls subsequent week might affect well being and science coverage within the years to come back.
Science Shortly is produced by me, Rachel Feltman, together with Fonda Mwangi, Kelso Harper, Madison Goldberg and Jeff DelViscio. Shayna Posses and Aaron Shattuck fact-check our present. Our theme music was composed by Dominic Smith. Subscribe to Scientific American for extra up-to-date and in-depth science information.
For Scientific American, that is Rachel Feltman. See you subsequent time!
