Blame the abrupt nature of her rise to the highest of the ticket or the basic nature of the vice presidency, however Kamala Harris remains to be working to introduce herself to the American folks simply weeks earlier than Election Day.
Crafting the technique to just do that’s Brian Fallon, considered one of Harris’ most trusted aides and the marketing campaign’s senior adviser for communications. He’s a longtime messaging maven for the occasion, having served as a prime aide to Chuck Schumer and Hillary Clinton and as a co-founder of the authorized advocacy group Demand Justice.
In an interview with thePlaybook Deep Dive podcast, Fallon laid out how the Harris marketing campaign was approaching the ultimate dash to the election, together with its efforts to overhaul Donald Trump on the problem of the financial system and why he thought there would possibly nonetheless be yet another presidential debate.
Fallon additionally prompt that Harris would possibly make some strikes in a bid to chop into Trump’s robust assist amongst younger males.
“With out previewing any explicit exhibits or retailers that we could find yourself showing on,” Fallon stated, “I believe it is truthful to say that we’re going to take an all-of-the-above method to her appearances, as a result of we expect that there is every kind of various audiences which might be very open to studying extra about her.”
This dialog has been edited for size and readability by Deep Dive Producer Kara Tabor and Senior Producer Alex Keeney. You’ll be able to take heed to the complete Playbook Deep Dive podcast interview right here:
One factor that Vice President Harris does otherwise than President Biden is how she engages with Donald Trump. On the DNC, she type of framed him as an unserious particular person with presumably severe penalties. It looks like she is attempting to make Trump appear small — not a harmful, terrifying dictator who has large plans to dismantle democracy. Did this concept come from her?
You are proper to note that there is kind of a duality to how we handle him, as a result of I believe that is the way in which that the voters maintain each ideas of their minds about him: that he is an unserious man in some ways, however who represents a severe menace to democracy if he will get elected and to basic freedoms that folks take with no consideration. And he or she talks about them in equal measure. Such as you talked about on the debate, she talked about how when you tune into his rallies — she had the thought to actually encourage folks to observe considered one of his rallies — and he or she talked about how he’ll invoke Hannibal Lecter, sharks and the way windmills trigger most cancers.
However what’s actually lurking behind his candidacy is that this Venture 2025 agenda, which our polling exhibits the general public may be very conscious of. The title recognition of Venture 2025 is extraordinarily excessive and persons are fairly accustomed to its contents and folks sharply disagree with what’s in there. So it rings true to folks once we discuss concerning the severe penalties. And with a whole lot of the persuadable voters that stay undecided — speaking about his threats to weaponize the Justice Division, speaking about how he desires to purge profession civil servants in favor of loyalists all through the federal government — these are issues that actually resonate. So she’ll proceed to speak about these qualities of his in equal measure.
As journalists, we clearly care about media protection and the way a lot entry reporters should her. She is monitoring effectively behind Trump and JD Vance in press conferences and interviews. What’s the technique right here?
Primary, folks mustn’t learn an excessive amount of into what some have described as a scarcity or an absence of interviews within the first six weeks of the marketing campaign.
But it surely took a very long time earlier than we bought the primary one.
However bear in mind all of the issues that she needed to do as a candidate that was abruptly thrust to the highest of the ticket: She needed to merge a Wilmington operation that was constructed for a special candidate solely and make it hers; she needed to undergo what would usually be a six-month course of to vet and select a working mate — she had to do this in mainly three weeks; she needed to plan a conference from scratch and plan a set of remarks for the conference that will be actually her first high-profile alternative to introduce herself to the general public; she needed to prepare for and succeed on the controversy stage, which after the conference, was the subsequent most vital setting — 70 million eyeballs and we took prep for that critically. And so she had a whole lot of work that she needed to do in a really truncated schedule simply to get the marketing campaign off the bottom.
Now we’re getting into a section of the marketing campaign the place the working mate is chosen. The conference has occurred.
The final debate has occurred.
We nonetheless assume we would get one other debate. We may discuss that. The one and solely debate agreed to up to now has occurred.
Now we’re getting into a section of the marketing campaign the place we nonetheless have the crucial of needing to introduce her to a very good swath of the citizens. We all know that the extra that folks get to see her and listen to from her straight, the extra they like her. So now we have each need and intention to proceed to place her in settings that will not command the identical variety of eyeballs as, say, the conference or the controversy, however that may get her on the market and in entrance of audiences that may be as massive as attainable.
So are we speaking about considered one of these every week? Two?
I believe we will do a mixture of issues when it comes to a whole lot of battleground state media, whether or not it is native tv, like we did ABC 6 in Philadelphia final week, or a whole lot of radio. She did a nationally syndicated Spanish language radio program, Cheeky Child, earlier this week. And I believe we’ll combine in nationwide press retailers. I believe we’ll do a whole lot of, , digital-first kind of alternatives, podcasts, late evening exhibits, daytime discuss exhibits.
If you wish to get a way of the varieties of engagements she’s more likely to do within the remaining 50 or so days of the marketing campaign, have a look at what she was doing within the first seven months of this calendar yr previous to the ticket change. As a result of Kirsten Allen, who has run her communications workplace on the official aspect, had her doing a heavy rotation of daytime discuss exhibits, nationwide print interviews with magazines, nationwide sit-downs with tv retailers like 60 Minutes late final yr, cable hits — she did like 80 plus interviews within the first seven months of this yr. And so that could be a default setting for Kamala Harris when it comes to media engagement. And I believe what the remaining 50 days of this marketing campaign will appear like is one thing nearer to that.
You talked about doing one other debate. You’ve tweeted about this. Vice President Harris has talked about it. However former President Trump has stated there shall be no extra debates. Do you guys really feel like that’s the tip of that risk?
We do not assume that is the final phrase on this.
Why not?
As a result of he has stated that earlier than after which modified his thoughts, together with on the ABC debate that did find yourself occurring. He pulled out of that a minimum of as soon as, perhaps twice, relying on the way you rely it. On the finish of the day, I believe his group realized that he wanted to debate. And, , he has a tough time turning down a possibility to look in entrance of that many individuals. We very a lot wish to have one other debate within the month of October. The vp has stated that. She stated that she thinks that they owe it to the voters. It could be very unusual if there was just one debate. , traditionally, there’s three.
There’s been two up to now. And one ended with Biden getting kicked out of the race.
After which take into consideration the truth that we do have a vice presidential debate on the books on Oct. 1, hosted by CBS. It could be very unusual for the final phrase on this marketing campaign to be a vice presidential debate.
So we expect it is applicable to have a bookend there after the vice presidential debate, however earlier than Election Day, the place the vp and former President Trump have the chance to take the stage once more.
I believe that it is going to be exhausting for him to keep up that place because the scrutiny on this subject ramps up. I believe he is broadly perceived to have misplaced that debate. The vp gave a commanding efficiency at that debate. So we’re going into this eyes extensive open to the truth that it could be unimaginable to dwell as much as the expectations that shall be created for her on account of how robust her look was final time.
On the debate, Linsey Davis requested Harris why she’s modified her thoughts on completely different insurance policies, similar to fracking, immigration, assault weapon buybacks, and many others. The vp did not actually reply. She stated that her values have not modified. Has she instructed you what over the past 3 ½ years has led her to alter her thoughts?
I believe she stated it. And I believe what she’s conveyed is that the expertise of being vp for the final 3 ½ years has proven her the flexibility to make good on priorities that she’s had for a very long time all through her profession in ways in which did not essentially require hewing to the positions that she could have staked out in 2019. It has satisfied her of how one can forge bipartisan consensus on a few of these points when you tack in direction of sensible options.
So tack to the middle?
Effectively, I am going to offer you an instance. Individuals wish to discuss her previous assist for “Medicare for All.” Underneath this administration, they’ve lowered the price of premiums for folk below the ACA. And so that’s strengthening the ACA as the strategy for making good on her worth of constructing well being care a proper, not a privilege for these that may afford it.
The Inexperienced New Deal. They handed the Inflation Discount Act, which has made historic investments in a clear vitality future and created over 300,000 clear vitality jobs. They usually’ve achieved that without having to push the Inexperienced New Deal because the one-and-only answer.
Have been the positions she took in 2019 extra a product of the place I believe a whole lot of the Democrats thought the occasion was on the time, which was additional to the left? Have been her 2019 insurance policies the true her or are we seeing that now?
I believe in that marketing campaign and in that time period, the Democratic Occasion wished to face in stark distinction to Donald Trump and outlined positions that confirmed the depth of our disagreement with Donald Trump. I believe that these had been statements reflecting strongly held values that not simply she however different Democrats on the time held.
However then if you’re in it, if you’re within the function of governing, it’s important to make good religion efforts to attempt to obtain progress. And oftentimes that requires working with folks throughout the aisle and even inside your individual caucus generally, as a result of a whole lot of these items, just like the Inflation Discount Act, required compromises with extra average members of the caucus like Joe Manchin.
A Instances/Siena ballot famous that there’s a 51-point gender hole in swing states Arizona, Georgia, Michigan, Nevada, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin for younger voters aged 18 to 29. Your marketing campaign has talked about assembly folks the place they’re. Have you ever been in discussions internally about her occurring podcasts that cater to younger males? Joe Rogan, Theo Von, locations that Trump and allies of his have gone on?
With out previewing any explicit exhibits or retailers that we could find yourself showing on: I believe it is truthful to say that we’re going to take an all-of-the-above method to her appearances as a result of we expect that there is every kind of various audiences which might be very open to studying extra about her.
Even earlier than she grew to become the candidate on the prime of the ticket, she was doing an financial alternative tour, and actually the viewers for that financial alternative tour was younger males and specifically younger males of colour. And the message of entrepreneurship, rising entry to capital and providing you with the instruments and the sources to have the ability to begin your individual enterprise was a undertaking and a precedence of hers that grew out of a bunch of dinners and conferences that she was convening with Black enterprise leaders about tips on how to communicate to the aspirations and the ambitions of younger males.
She did about 5 stops, I believe, on that tour earlier than she ended up turning into the candidate on the prime of the ticket and that went over fairly effectively. That is a message that I believe she will convey to these audiences on the stump, but in addition in media appearances. So with out committing to any explicit outlet or host that she would possibly do an interview with — completely, I believe that we’re taking a look at issues like that.
Are we going to be stunned by a few of the decisions that you simply guys make?
Perhaps, as a result of once more, we really feel like it is going to be a present of confidence on our half concerning the attain that we expect she has.
Take heed to this episode of Playbook Deep Dive on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Why do you assume there’s this intense gender hole? Clearly, there is a gender hole for Trump in ladies, however she has that very same subject simply mirrored with younger males.
Effectively, I do not assume that is the ultimate phrase on what her standing shall be with younger males, as a result of she is simply being launched to the nation. She’s been vp for 3½ years. However the vice presidency is, traditionally, a counterintuitively poor platform from which to be a nationally identified determine, as a result of by definition, you are within the shadow of the one who you share the ticket with. And so she’s not been well-known. Within the 7 or 8 weeks since she’s been the candidate, the extra folks have gotten to know her, the extra they like her and the extra open-minded they’re to her.
You talked about merging the Wilmington operation and making it her personal. We have reported and different retailers have reported the tensions which have been created if you’re attempting to merge all of these issues. How’s it going?
It is a actually seamless, well-integrated operation.
Seamless?
Sure. There was a mixture at this level of those that got here up as Obama folks, that got here up as Joe Biden folks, that got here up as Hillary Clinton, folks which might be all rowing in the identical route now. And those that had been longtime die-hard Vice President [Harris] folks and folks which might be completely new to her. And that Wilmington operation is buzzing and making it work.
So we’re not going to listen to any extra tales of tensions and folks feeling layered over and all of these issues?
No, there is not any time for that at this level. And actually, the operation, in a really transient period of time, the roles have grow to be clear and the mentality has flowed from the highest. Jen [O’Malley Dillon] has carried out an excellent job. Jen runs a gathering like no one else I’ve ever encountered when it comes to how a lot floor she covers in a 30-minute assembly, how a lot she desires to listen to from folks and the way a lot she drives exhausting points to a conclusion and to a call level. She’s extraordinarily decisive, extraordinarily no-nonsense and he or she is anyone that doesn’t endure fools and that could be a credit score to her.
David Plouffe is now a staple on all of the deliberative conferences that the marketing campaign has. I really feel like each time David opens his mouth, I study one thing that I hadn’t considered — simply tremendous incisive, a shopper of information and actually gifted at taking information and making use of it to on a regular basis tactical eventualities that it’s important to decide on.
Stephanie Cutter, who was my very first boss in politics, helps map out all of these large moments in media engagements that we’re simply speaking about. After which she has in Sheila Nix and Lorraine Voles two those that perceive what makes her tick day-after-day and have channeled that and imparted that to people which might be newcomers to the operation.
You talked about the VP debate with Tim Walz and JD Vance. What ought to we anticipate? As a result of in her debate it appears you guys got here up with the baiting technique. What ought to folks anticipate on Oct. 1?
To begin with, we had been planning for a JD Vance debate for a short time. And so he is a really sharp, expert debater. As you talked about, he is carried out like 70 Sunday exhibits. I really feel like he does the “Full Ginsburg” each weekend and it is not normally not useful for his or her marketing campaign. It is normally defending himself from his newest controversial feedback. However he is on the market on a regular basis and he is superb at evading a query or placing an interviewer again on their heels or expressing ethical indignation at a query’s premise.
And Walz says he’s not good at debates.
And [Vance is] a Yale-educated man and so he is slick and he’ll be a formidable debate opponent for Gov. Walz. I believe basically, VP debates at all times flip not on the person positions or previous feedback that the working mates have made. They’re proxy debates. And so the distinction that’ll be on show basically is the distinction on the prime of the ticket, simply by means of the proxies of those working mates. And so JD Vance, on the one hand, a really expert debater, superb at swashbuckling with questioners. However he’ll should defend the Trump document. And that is a tough task for anyone to hold out. And you’ve got seen JD Vance wrestle with this. He is generally gotten forward of Donald Trump and stuffed in positions for him after which had to return and alter it or contradict it. And so it is a powerful task to should defend the Trump document. And so in that sense, I do not envy JD Vance and that is what I’d anticipate Gov. Walz will give attention to.
You have been right here earlier than your self: September earlier than an election, feeling type of good, working for a lady candidate, considering that you simply guys are about to make historical past. How completely different does this really feel? Does it really feel completely different in any respect?
It feels completely different within the sense that this has by no means occurred earlier than in fashionable marketing campaign historical past. This can be a scenario the place the marketing campaign is being constructed on the identical time that the airplane is flying.
Individuals at all times say that however you really are having that have in actual time.
The opposite factor that I believe is true is that the candidate herself has created this mindset among the many employees that it doesn’t matter what the polls say, we’re working because the underdogs. And there’s a very kind of upstart high quality to the marketing campaign, each due to its stunning origin story of what occurred in July and the ticket change after which all these challenges that we have needed to execute that normally would possibly take a yr’s value of planning and have needed to be carried out on two weeks’ discover. And simply the truth that Donald Trump is a formidable candidate who’s gained as soon as and are available very shut a second time and has a really cussed stage of assist.
The underdog mentality is one which she actually, genuinely does really feel and brings to each assembly and brings to each dialog with the employees. And so in 2016, at this level within the calendar, was there a sense that now we have work to do however we felt like we had been within the driver’s seat? Sure, there was. On this marketing campaign, it looks like we’re preventing for each inch and nobody is taking something with no consideration. The schedule displays that we’re campaigning in all places.
What was she going to name him on the controversy stage when she goes “this …”?
She was simply gathering her ideas.
Oh, was she? As a result of the web appears to assume she was going to make use of her favourite curse phrase, which occurs to be “motherfucka.”
I noticed that clip resurfaced not too long ago. However I believe she was simply gathering her ideas, Eugene.
Are you positive about that? “This … former president?”
I believe that second that you simply’re referencing was a kind of image of the truth that despite the fact that we very a lot wished the mics to be unmuted, she did fairly effectively with the muted mics when it comes to being expressive and when it comes to capturing her real reactions within the second by means of nonverbal means.
On the debate, who got here up with the technique to bait him?
That was much less of a technique than… I imply, when you have a look at all of the moments that folks say, “Oh, that was carried out to get below his pores and skin,” all of them corresponded with a substantive level that she was making. Like when she talked about watching his rallies and you will hear him discuss Hannibal Lecter and folks leaving early, the subsequent phrases out of her mouth had been, “What you do not hear him speaking about is his plans for you.” And in order that was a substantive level that she was making.
However she knew she was going to piss him off by speaking about his rallies.
The opposite level the place she talked about not everyone will get a $400 million present from their father to start out off within the enterprise world after which finally ends up submitting for chapter six occasions, she was making a degree about emphasizing how she will relate to middle-class life and he cannot. And so there was a degree past getting below his pores and skin to all of these exchanges.
In a means, despite the fact that we did not have the mics unmuted, what she was capable of do was create an analogous impact, which was to stage the cost at him that he then felt compelled to reply. It simply did not occur in a direct alternate, however she nonetheless kind of simulated that very same impact with the technique that she deployed and the credit score for that efficiency goes solely to her. I imply, a very good prep course of may be useful, nevertheless it’s candidate efficiency on the finish of the day. That’s what’s the distinction between success and failure.
So the baiting wasn’t one thing she practiced?
No.
However I believe when you have a look at her —
In any respect?
No, I believe that many of the prep periods are spent in an analogous means as what I think about the Trump people do. They talk about it as “coverage time,” I believe. And that is actually what most prep is for any marketing campaign. You are not doing mocks one hundred pc of the time. You are going over the factors concerning the impact of his 20 p.c tariffs, the financial affect of that has been estimated to be $4,000 in elevated prices for the typical household per yr. After which the efficiency of all of it is one thing that solely the candidate can management when it comes to how they do it. How she dealt with it on the controversy stage was a credit score to her and her preparation. And he or she kicked his butt.
The Teamsters this week declined to endorse both Trump or Harris. They sometimes endorse the Democrat on this. Virtually 60 p.c of their straw ballot of Teamsters wished Trump. When Biden was within the race, simply 36 p.c of them favored Trump. Why does that constituency see Harris a lot much less favorably than Biden?
Effectively, I believe there’s some questions on how scientific the polling is. I’ll say this: To begin with, we’re extraordinarily proud to have the assist of the overwhelming majority of labor organizations on this nation, whether or not it is UAW or NEA or AFT.
With respect to the Teamsters — despite the fact that the nationwide made the choice that they made to do the non-endorsement — within the wake of that you have seen locals come out strongly representing a whole lot of 1000’s of Teamsters in key battleground states like Wisconsin and Nevada, Pennsylvania. So you have seen enormous expressions of assist from the rank and file within the type of the locals which have introduced in simply the final 24 hours. And the opposite level I am going to make on that is she knew full effectively when she went into that assembly on Monday on the Teamsters headquarters that it was fairly possible that she wouldn’t get the endorsement. And he or she was briefed on that. She knew what the politics had been on the management of the Teamsters Union.
However the underlying lack of curiosity from the Teamsters type of speaks to a bigger query of how Harris goes to win again these working-class white voters in locations like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and Michigan. Does she assume she will make up these numbers with different teams or how a lot does she want the parents that make up one thing like a Teamsters union?
Effectively, I’ll make a prediction. I believe that it is fairly attainable that by the tip of this election cycle that she shall be extra trusted than Trump on dealing with the financial system.
She has lots to make up there.
Effectively, there’s a whole lot of indicators already that she is narrowing the hole, if not working even with him, in accordance with some polls. She polls very strongly amongst possible voters on that query. And persons are nonetheless attending to know her. And the profit that now we have is the upside potential along with her. The extra that voters get to find out about her background and her plans, the extra they like her. Whereas with Trump, the extra that they are reminded about what his presidency was like, the extra that they are reminded about how excessive a few of his future plans are and what the Venture 2025 Agenda would do.
However increasingly more folks like him now than they did in 2020 or 2016.
We predict on the financial system, to the extent that it’s considered one of, if not the highest, subject amongst a few of the key voters that you simply’re framing the query round, we expect that now we have some actually favorable comparisons to drive between her and him on the financial system. But it surely requires introducing a whole lot of new data to folks. And so by the point we’re carried out litigating the case each in paid media and in simply having her on the market doing appearances and at rallies and whatnot, by the point we’re completed making the case, for this reason I really feel like now we have a successful hand as soon as we get the chance to prosecute the case with the general public. She is of the center class and Donald Trump is not.
Born from the center class, however she’s not center class anymore.
Effectively, she had a middle-class upbringing and he or she’s been weaving that a part of her bio into her appearances at each alternative, together with her conference speech, together with on the debate.
Together with within the interview I did along with her this week.
Yeah, speaking about being raised by a working mom and rising up in a neighborhood that was modest and it took till she was in highschool for her mom to have the ability to afford to purchase their first dwelling. And so she will relate to the expertise of individuals which might be feeling the pinch of excessive costs proper now. Whereas Donald Trump by no means may. He by no means had that have.
Quantity two, she’s bought plans that one financial authority after one other is saying it is going to be higher for the financial system than his. And so I believe we simply should have the suitable period of time to make that case and break by means of with that message. And the extra we do this, the extra she eats into the benefit that he presently has on that every one vital subject of the financial system. I believe she will overtake him by the tip of the marketing campaign on that subject.
Mark Robinson, the lieutenant governor of North Carolina and the Republican gubernatorial candidate, apparently stated years in the past that he desires slavery to come back again. He known as himself a “black Nazi” on-line. There’s a number of different wild issues on-line from his previous. He stated he is staying within the race. I am curious when you guys assume that’s useful for you guys in North Carolina.
So I’ve not studied the latest revelations, however even earlier than immediately, Mark Robinson is anyone that’s identified in North Carolina as an excessive candidate. Josh Stein, alternatively, is a powerful candidate for us in that race. Strong document because the state’s lawyer common. And a whole lot of indicators have him within the lead even earlier than this.
When you win North Carolina, win Georgia, does that assist remedy what a whole lot of Democrats say could possibly be a Pennsylvania drawback, that she’s perhaps not as nice in Pennsylvania as she is within the different blue wall states?
So we do not give it some thought in these phrases. We do not give it some thought in a zero sum kind of means.
Not publicly, a minimum of.
No, however actually we’re competing to win in all places. And we’re in all probability spending extra time in Pennsylvania than wherever else.
I used to be simply there along with her this week.
Sure. And he or she’s campaigning in rural components of the commonwealth. She’s campaigning in crimson counties the place we may anticipate Trump to win, however consuming into his margin may be the distinction in successful statewide in going to these locations, which she’ll proceed to do. She was in Savannah, Georgia, a few weeks in the past. Once we had been in a photograph line there, anyone identified that it hasn’t been since Invoice Clinton {that a} Democrat campaigned in a common election in Savannah.
And so we will go to markets and we will go to inside counties and we will go to crimson, crimson components of the map the place a Democrat may not win. But it surely serves two functions to go there: One is you may erode the margin of victory, which may assist translate to a statewide victory. However second, it additionally sends an vital message symbolically: that you simply’re campaigning in all places, that you simply’re attempting to be a president for all Individuals and that is been a key theme of hers. It is why I believe we’re attracting a whole lot of assist from Republicans and we will proceed to emphasise that on the path.
Take heed to this episode of Playbook Deep Dive on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
