The next is a transcript of an interview with Sue Gordon, principal deputy director of Nationwide Intelligence within the first Trump administration, on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” that aired on Nov. 17, 2024.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Sue Gordon. She served because the Principal Deputy Director of Nationwide Intelligence throughout Donald Trump’s first time period within the White Home. Good to see you right here once more.
SUE GORDON: Nice to see you, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So that you personally briefed Donald Trump as President within the Oval Workplace. If this nominee to be Tulsi Gabbard turns into the Director of Nationwide Intelligence, and John Ratcliffe turns into the CIA director, are you assured that Mr. Trump might be informed the data he must know, and never simply what he desires to know?
SUE GORDON: Effectively, I believe that is the- I believe that is the query of the day. Intelligence is bizarre
as a result of it is all the time unsure, and you’re all the time making an evaluation so {that a} decision-maker can work out what they’ll do with it. And so it is explicit. And also you- your solely job is to ruthlessly report what you see, not what you like. In order that’s the first job of the DNI, is to go in there and to be his principal advisor on intelligence. You are the primary in, you are the final out. You can not afford to, I am going to say pander to desire. Loyalty would not serve you properly in that job. It’s a must to be so dedicated that you’ll say inconvenient issues. I’ll say the previous president would inform you that I’d discuss to him about Russian interference. I do know he hated it, however Russia was in reality interfering, and he wanted to listen to that info. So do I consider that Tulsi and John may be that individual? In the event that they consider they should be, they’ll study. In the event that they lean on the men and women of the intelligence neighborhood, they’ll produce an evaluation. However that is a tough day, and also you higher be good at it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You needed to endure an FBI background test to acquire a safety clearance and to take care of it. You had been a profession official, 25 years on the CIA, then, as we mentioned, moved on to nationwide intelligence. The New York Instances is reporting the Trump workforce could bypass the FBI course of and simply use a personal agency to vet candidates. Then, when the president is sworn in, he can grant entry to the nation’s secrets and techniques reasonably than undergo that screening. What threat is there in bypassing the FBI?
SUE GORDON: Effectively, the primary threat is that you’re going to get an incomplete image of the human that’s carrying each the belief of the American individuals and the belief of our allies and companions and the belief of the men and women which are placing their lives on the road for that judgment, proper? Everybody hates vetting. It is intrusive. It- you do not know why anybody ought to need to do it, as a result of you already know who you’re. However the fact is, we all know adversaries and rivals will exploit people to have the ability to advance their pursuits, and also you wish to guarantee that the those who maintain the American individuals’s belief and probably the most valuable items of knowledge we now have of benefit, haven’t any cracks in who they’re. And so it appears expedient, however I believe it would in the end hurt the establishment. And by that I imply the establishment of America, you probably have individuals who we uncover later that they need to not have had entry, or we uncover later that they had been weak to the actions of our allies and of our adversaries and rivals–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Due to leverage on them–
SUE GORDON: — It’s, I imply, that is, I imply, the craft of human intelligence is definitely discovering somebody who has a weak spot and getting them to have the ability to advance your pursuits, and it just- and what a very good day is while you discover somebody whose pursuits align with yours, and then you definitely actually push that. So a personal agency is not going to have the requirements that we have had. I do know it is inconvenient, however I believe it is a unhealthy technique and dangerous for America.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So CBS has additionally realized that, up to now, the Trump workforce hasn’t signed the paperwork that will begin the method of the nationwide safety briefings, so that somebody’s not strolling in chilly they’re briefed and on top of things, together with these background checks. The Partnership for Public Service, a nonpartisan group that helps with the transitions, confirmed that to CBS. Is there any good cause to not signal these papers, and what does it do for the officers who arrive with out being learn in on what’s occurring now?
SUE GORDON: Yeah, I am unable to consider a- I am unable to consider cause. I believe one of many nice falsehoods that is been perpetrated on America is that our establishments are malfeasant. They have to be higher, they have to be slimmer, they have to be extra clear, however they don’t seem to be bummed. So you are not defending anyone by not signing these papers, and particularly with a number of the nominees we now have that do not have the actually deep expertise base, these are large jobs. I imply, intelligence is not only advising the president, it is also working an enormous enterprise in a fashion that permits our allies and companions to belief us with their most valuable factor. So I am unable to consider a cause why that is not signed- signed, and to start out your gig with none basis in any respect, particularly when the establishments are begging to present you that basis simply appears wrong-headed.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You are diplomatically referring to Tulsi Gabbard there, who would not have a background in intelligence. She additionally has a historical past of statements, of claiming issues that mirror the rhetoric of us adversaries, Vladimir Putin and Bashar al-Assad. There have been a minimum of two chemical weapons assaults in Syria that killed 1000’s of individuals, and the US intelligence neighborhood got here to public assessments of excessive confidence. I think about you noticed all of that intelligence and also you briefed on it.
SUE GORDON: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So when she comes out and says that she doubts it. She’s skeptical. How is that going to be acquired by the profession professionals who work for her?
SUE GORDON: Yeah I discussed one in all her jobs can be to be the senior advisor. The second is to be liable for all intelligence sharing agreements so our allies and companions upon whom we rely, that Syria evaluation, that was joint with our allies and companions. The one we had on Skripal was joint. Our evaluation of Ukraine was joint–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –That was sorry, simply to clarify for our viewers, Skripal, you are speaking in regards to the killing on British soil of a former Russian by Russian intelligence.
SUE GORDON: However all these had been collectively executed with our allies and companions. We’d like them. It is one of many best strengths of America, however they’ll make their very own evaluation over whether or not we may be trusted with their nation’s pursuits, and whether or not she meant it or not, whether or not she was simply ill-informed of that, she is available in with strikes towards her within the belief perspective, can we belief her with our most sacred intelligence to signify that in a good approach. So I believe it is an issue, whether or not it is judgment or every other factor that she has represented there.
MARGARET BRENNAN: One other nerve within the intelligence neighborhood, after all, is Edward Snowden. Tulsi Gabbard, and the choice for the lawyer normal, Matt Gaetz, put ahead resolutions to name for the fees to be dropped towards him as a result of he leaked labeled nationwide intelligence materials. He is residing in Russia today. That type of a place, how’s that going to be acquired?
SUE GORDON: It displays a lack of expertise of who we’re, and it displays a scarcity of respect for what we do. Unauthorized disclosures of intelligence are all the time unhealthy. Do not go together with the nice or unhealthy, any good final result or whether or not he was proper or unsuitable. He had no authority, and he had completely different paths, and he harmed America. He not solely harmed intelligence, he harmed our allies and companions, and he harmed our companies by what it allowed China to imagine about that. there may be nothing justifiable about what he is executed. None. And so in the event that they vacate it, what they’re mainly saying is all these guidelines you comply with so as to have the ability to serve America, they do not matter anymore.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Sue Gordon, thanks for explaining this very opaque world of intelligence to us and in your evaluation in the present day. We’ll be again in a second.
